Pub Talk is an interview series where we chat to some of Australia’s most experienced and influential publishers, editors and agents about the industry and the many pathways to publication for new writers.
Meredith Curnow publishes literary fiction and narrative non-fiction at Penguin Random House Australia. She is also a board member of Express Media, an organisation that develops, supports and promotes young writers.
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Where did your love of books begin?
MC: I grew up in a family of readers. Both my parents read. I only knew one set of grandparents, but when I visited them, they read as well. I’m also number four of five children. And my reading was influenced by those all the siblings—you know, when all you want to do is what the older ones are doing. I read what they were reading.
My younger sister likes to tell stories, though, of how there was a period in high school when I didn’t seem that interested. It returned as an adult when I was directing my own reading. I studied English and Australian literature at uni—not very career-minded of me, perhaps (laughs), with no idea what kind of occupation that would lead them to.
But I just love it. Life is hard, books are better.
Your first job in the industry was at the Australian Publishers Association in 1991. What kind of foundation did this give your career?
MC: It was amazing. I’d been travelling overseas, had other jobs. When I returned to Australia, I decided was only going to apply for jobs that were advertised in Spectrum. It was the equivalent of the arts, reviews and culture section of the Sydney Morning Herald on Saturdays. Anything that they advertised as a job, I thought that would be fine for me (laughs). And, obviously, I had no idea what a trade association did.
Life is hard, books are better.
But it was such a good grounding. I worked on the small publishers’ committee, the trade publishers’ committee—the big houses—and the export committee. The trade association also ran all the events. I was able to meet lots of people and just really understand the business, the costs involved, the governmental legislative regulations, all of that. Always fighting against the dumping of cheaper books in the country. It was fantastic.
You’ve tried on a few hats in your time. Notably, you were the director of the Sydney Writers’ Festival. What was that experience like?
MC: It was extraordinary and exhausting. I think I look ten years older than I really am because of it (laughs). They were the first five years of the festival. Richard Glover, the ABC broadcaster, once said to me, years after the festival, I still don’t recognise you when you’re not carrying a chair.
We did everything—fundraising, author invitations, curating sessions, government lobbying, writing acquittals for funding… And we had just two staff, and even one of those was four days a week because she had a kid. We didn’t even have an office for many years—we were able to kind of squat in various City of Sydney buildings. They were amazing, amazing times. And, you know, I still can’t believe the people I corresponded with, the people who would say yes and come to the festival.
Now that you’re on the other side, as a publisher, how important are festivals to a book’s vitality? Can they make a book?
MC: I think writers festivals definitely used to be able to make a book. They can still create incredible buzz. And I think that more often than not it’s when you discover someone you didn’t know going in and come away really excited.
Festivals definitely used to be able to make a book.
It’s harder now because festivals are much bigger. You pay pretty much the price of a book to attend a session at a festival now, so I think kind of both the dollars and attention are dispersed. But they’re incredibly important. They’re really enlivening for writers, publishers and readers because you see all these other people excited about books and ideas as well.
You’ve been a publisher at Penguin Random House since 2003. Can you tell us about how you transitioned into this phase of your career?
MC: I came straight across after the festival—and I didn’t want to, actually! I was tired. I was really encouraged to go to Random House by Jane Palfreyman [current publisher at Allen & Unwin], who was also on the board of the writers’ festival. I thought, I need a break. I need to really think about the rest of my life. That kind of thing. But Jane said, They don’t come up very often, you know, roles in publishing houses like this. So I applied, and it must have been the right job for me, because twenty years later, here I am.
What are some of the challenges of the job?
MC: I really do love it, but at times it can be really hard—you have to achieve budgets, to publish a certain number of books every year, to try and win a book over another publisher, who’s often a friend too (laughs), all those kind of things. It can be incredibly depleting because you put so much of yourself into it.
But I still love books. I still get the most amazing buzz seeing a physical book emerge after a really hard slog. Books change not just readers, but sometimes they can change the world as well. I’m so privileged and lucky to be in this role.
There’s been a trend towards the consolidation of publishing houses, with the Penguin Random House merger being a huge event. You work for a few imprints under the umbrella of the publishing house. For the uninitiated, could you explain what an imprint is and why they’re important?
MC: Yes, I work with Knopf, Vintage, Hamish Hamilton and Viking.
It’s funny because we do know that the vast majority of readers don’t notice imprints at all—and yet we spend a lot of time thinking about them. My shorthand is that it’s like cereals—you know, like there’s Kellogg’s, the big company, and then there’s the umbrella of cornflakes, and then they branch out into Special K and Crunchy Nut and so on (laughs). Some writers care about imprints; not really younger writers. The prestige of imprints isn’t as big anymore.
Can you tell us a bit about the differences between your imprints?
MC: Knopf is very much the literary upmarket, but in Australia we use it very rarely, because they print in hardback only. We rarely publish hardbacks now. Often it’s when a very senior writer insists or if we have the opportunity to make a very special edition, or if it will add meaning to the book itself.
I still get the most amazing buzz seeing a physical book emerge after a really hard slog.
Of course, Random House’s history is American, on the whole, whereas Penguin is British, bringing different things into the mix. Hamish Hamilton is a literary imprint from England and has a big, grand history. Vintage Australia—the one I worked in predominantly until I started taking on some of the Penguin imprints—is literary, but it’s fiction and non-fiction, and a bit more of a catch-all. So we can stretch it a bit further to meet the middle of the market than just publishing literary work. And then Viking, which is a Penguin imprint, is very middle-market fiction and non-fiction, with broad appeal.
From your perspective, what are the benefits of being published by a company like Penguin Random House, as opposed to say a smaller indie publisher?
MC: Because we are the biggest, we do everything ourselves in-house. Almost nothing is outsourced. Some editorial services are, but not mine. Most of my books are edited in-house; we have a huge team of editors. Sometimes the relationship between publisher and author can get really intense, especially if it’s been a long one, and I always find it a relief to be able to bring a third person into that mix if needed. So if I reach an impasse with an author, or they reach an impasse with me, we have that in-house editor that I can call upon.
I learn all the time by having in-house editors too, and hopefully they’re learning from me. We also have an open-plan office, so if I need to ask someone questions, they’re nearby. In the same way, we have our own in our salesforce, our own marketing, things like that, whereas some people have to naturally have to outsource those kinds of things. So the advantages, I think, are all around our own services that we can bring to books.
We also have both Sydney and Melbourne offices, which I think is a really big advantage.
You’ve said that there’s no typical day for a publisher. But I was wondering if you could give us an insight into your job? How do you go about sourcing authors to commission?
MC: Yes, every day is different, with lots going on.
Because I work across fiction and non-fiction, commissioning nonfiction without an agent is something that I have always done, and some of that came through my festival days to be honest, just knowing people. Most fiction comes through agents. Less of this now, but there used to be quite a bit that came recommended through university writing courses.
Because we are the biggest, we do everything ourselves in-house.
We also make sure there’s someone at every ASA [Australian Society of Authors] pitching session, at various conferences. I’m taking pitches online. So they can come from anywhere. Taking pitches is not perfect by any means, but it’s the best way we know so far to make ourselves available to more and more people.
Are you still finding gems in the slush pile?
MC: It can get out of control, so that it’s harder in in terms of the sheer quantity the company receives.
But we have just started a new process, organised by our managing editor and editorial assistants, and today I received my first summary, a line on each book and a line from the submissions reader. They’ve now gone electronic only, which does disadvantage some people, but it does make it a lot more efficient and environmentally sustainable as well. I think that’s going to be a quarterly thing. So I might discover something! We definitely have some books that have come from the slush. But it’s never been the best path to finding a publisher.
How do you know book is a winner. Is there anything that stands out to you?
MC: The thing that I respond to first is the voice of the work. You just fall into a voice, and there are so many different ways that a voice can be brilliant. And then you look at story, because, you know, the same story is told over and over in different ways. But it’s the voice that is outstanding.
You can be more open with the non-fiction because if there’s an incredible story you can help them find their voice and structure a story. But it’s so much harder to help create a voice for fiction. So you follow the voice, and you really hope it’s going to be a winner because I can tell you, you don’t really know (laughs). Things happen all the time, a book has to land at the right moment, with not too many competitors, with an amazing jacket—all those different things. There are so many parts to what makes a book work.
You’ve worked with many unknowns and debut authors, but also political figures and celebrities. What’s it like when you’re working with different kinds of writers?
MC: I think we have a tendency, those of us in the world of books, to think that everyone knows how the publishing world works. And of course they don’t. Someone asked me the other day: What if all of those books sell? What do you do? So I said: Oh, we reprint.
The thing that I respond to first is the voice of the work.
It was great for me to be confronted by that email. It’s so easy to just presume that everyone understands how it all comes together. We just created this thing called a Penguin Passport, and it’s a comprehensive guide for our authors. I worry some who have more experience with publishing will think it’s patronising, but I’m probably wrong—they’ll probably love it because it will be put in clear terms for them as a writer.
When you’re working with first-time authors, what do you want them to get out of the publishing process?
MC: I want them to feel like they have been the boss. I see it like this: author is part of the word authority. You’re the authority. Someone will say to me: Oh, I don’t know. Should this character do this? Should that character do that? I want them to have the courage to feel entirely comfortable with me and to say what’s important in their novel. I want them to feel immensely proud and satisfied with what they put into the world.
I also ask that they are incredibly open to the respectful questions and suggestions that are put to them throughout. In an edit, you never have to accept anything that’s on the page, but please stop and think about it. Challenge it if you don’t want to take it on, but don’t just tick over it.
Every now and again we hear that the novel is dead or dying. As someone who works in the literary fiction space, how is the form holding up?
MC: I don’t think it’s ever going to die. It will always survive. People will always want to read fiction. But are people buying it at the moment (laughs)? Not in the volumes that we would like, that’s for sure. I don’t know if it’s because of the state of the world, but people don’t seem to be spending as much time reading literary fiction as they do at other times. But I believe they’ll come back.
Earlier this year, New Statesman had an article about the decline of the literary bloke. I was wondering as a publisher, what did you think of that?
MC: I know that male writers above the age of fifty feel that way. I know they think that it’s very hard to bring attention to their work. They definitely feel it and they might have reason for doing so as well.
So it’s something that does bear true in terms of sales?
MC: The market is more representative now. What is being published now is much broader than it was. Even though there’s some fantastic work from those writers as well, there’s just more to choose from now.
Trend casting is a part of your job. I was wondering if you had noticed any kind of emerging trends?
MC: Romance and crime. Crime has been up there for ages now, but the romance is growing, and crossing with other genres. Australia’s always lagged in producing its own speculative fiction, but everyone’s looking at spec fiction now.
As a publisher, how hands-on are you with the books you’re working on, in terms of doing structural edits and developing the work? There’s a perception that books are rushed out these days, that there is not as much time for development. I’m kind of curious about how important that is to you on your end?
MC: I suppose because I’m at the literary end, there’s certainly the expectation that I do rounds. It’s pretty rare for the book to be scheduled within a year of buying it, and I don’t publish anyone who does a book a year. So I don’t feel that pressure to get my books out quickly. We’re always rescheduling books, which isn’t ideal (laughs).
People will always want to read fiction.
But we do sell our books into retail six months out. Everyone in the industry has to do that, and that’s retailer-driven. So there is pressure to get books to a certain stage so that they can be read and promoted. The advanced reading copy is produced six months before it goes on sale, and more work is done after that. Sometimes I find a bit weird that we’re sharing the work before it’s perfect. But our rights manager is always going, No, give it over! You bought it before it’s ready, other people will too. So I feel that pressure more than trying to get a book to market in a short period of time.
Aside from the editing side, do you have a say in the production and the promotion?
MC: Oh, absolutely the covers and we position the book for publicity and marketing. But I don’t have any say in the budget that’s allocated to my books.
Do you sometimes disagree?
MC: Of course, absolutely. I had two back-to-back covers meetings yesterday. In one, I showed ten covers (laughs); I’m encouraged to show fewer than that. But they were all gorgeous, and everyone agreed. I love the one they chose. I showed the author; she loved it.
The other one, there was total disagreement at the meeting. And that’s sales, marketing, and the CEO comes to our cover meeting as well, which is interesting. And I don’t know what to do! Trying to express something unique about the book that’s appealing to the potential reader can be really hard.
You’re also involved in the Penguin Literary Prize, as well as a board member of Express Media, which helps with the development of young writers. Do you have any advice for early writers who are looking to get published?
MC: I think everyone should submit to Voiceworks—it’s the most amazing kind of grounding for young writers.
So yes, get involved in as many writerly organisations as you can. And there’s some ways to do that online regardless of where you live, of course. Write, write, write. Read, read, read. Submit work to appropriate places, but don’t waste your time on places that aren’t right for you. It’s ridiculous how many things are submitted that aren’t eligible.
Always have your work proofread before you send it in. It might sound pedantic and miserly, but you don’t want to read a cover note full of misused words or typos or that could have just been three lines rather than a page and a half of hyperbole. Be targeted. Be strategic. Treat it like a job, stay in touch with what’s going on. By that I don’t mean, you know, oh, romance is rising, therefore, you need to write romance. Just know who’s publishing what, what competitions are open, what journals you should be reading and submitting to, where you can get through resources, that kind of thing.
You spoke before about some of the challenges of your career. What are some of the highlights that stand out for you?
MC: Publishing Julia Gillard was pretty amazing. As was publishing The Yield by Tara June Winch, and seeing it win the Miles Franklin. That was huge. I couldn’t love that book more. It’s such an ambitious but also intimate and beautiful novel. Also, it was a book that I thought was really important to speak to all of us. It was an intense process as well, her first big novel too, so that was really wonderful to be involved in.
Know who’s publishing what, what competitions are open, what journals you should be reading.
Are there any books that you felt were underrated?
MC: Oh, so many! It’s heartbreaking to even talk about that.
This year, there have been some incredibly special books that had some coverage, but I think they need more. André Dao’s Anam—an extraordinary book. Briohny Doyle’s While We Are Here.
Briohny’s book is incredible. It’s about grief, but it’s just totally and utterly celebrating life, and I reckon getting that right is hard. Briohny endured a lot to be able to write that book. I love that book, and more people need to read it.
Images: Anam (2023) and Why We Are Here (2023).
Are there any up-and-coming writers that you’re excited about? Is there anyone we should be keeping our eyes out for?
MC: Well, Jumaana Abdu, whose work you know, having published her in KYD. We’re in the process of working on her novel.
I’m also publishing a novel with Thomas Weatherall, who you might know from Heartbreak High. He plays Malakai. He wrote this extraordinary play called Blue, which will be turned into a novel.
There’s also the winner of this year’s Penguin Literary Prize, Michelle See-Tho. I think her novel is just going to be great—I’m loving working with her already.
What are your hopes for the industry going forward? Is there anything that you wish you saw more of?
Obviously, we are all working towards better representation. I really believe everyone in the industry is trying to ensure their lists are more representative—and their staff.
I’d like more writers in regional areas to know that we know they can write and that we want their stories. I also look forward to celebrating more First Nations writers, that’s definitely improved over the years, but we need to see more being published.
This interview has been edited for brevity.
