Pub Talk is an interview series where we chat to some of Australia’s most experienced and influential publishers, editors and agents about the industry and the many pathways to publication for new writers.
Pippa Masson is a literary agent at Curtis Brown Australia. Masson has been in the industry for more than twenty years and her client list features writers such as Hannah Kent, JP Pomare and Kate Mildenhall.
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Your first industry job was work experience at HarperCollins at age fifteen. What was that like?
It was fantastic. Apart from the fact that at that point HarperCollins was at Pymble, which in Sydney is really quite far out. It was a strange place, in the middle of a whole bunch of more industrial sort of places. There was nowhere around to buy lunch, so they had this cafe on-site that I vividly remember called the Hardback Cafe, which was cute. (Laughs.)
I spent most of my time working with [children’s book editor, now children’s publisher at Allen & Unwin] Anna McFarlane and learned a lot from her. She was able to get me in right from the get-go. Editorial, production design—the whole way through. It was a really invaluable experience. I still enjoy being involved in the process of developing and workshopping author manuscripts, but I didn’t feel that my attention span probably was cut out for editorial where you read a book deeply three or four times.
How did you become an agent?
I had heard about being an agent through my mother [author Sophie Masson] whose agent was, and still is, Margaret Connolly. I was then very lucky to be recommended to Curtis Brown by [author and former literary agent] Garth Nix, a good friend of my mum’s but also the husband of Anna McFarlane, who I had done the work experience with.
I was lucky to get an on-the-ground opportunity at a young age at a really fantastic agency.
At the time, they were after a general agency assistant. I jumped at that chance because I felt that in that world, you still get to do some of that structural editing work. But there are all these other parts to being an agent that are social and fun and I like organisation and admin. (Laughs.) The admin is key to being a good agent. So I was lucky to get an on-the-ground opportunity at a young age at a really fantastic agency.
In the current publishing environment, how would you describe the role of an agent?
A lot of it is navigating change within the industry. I think we’re now seeing the real effects of the cost-of-living crisis and Covid. There have been lots of redundancies in publishing houses and there have been lots of people moving. Authors are feeling a bit unsettled. So a big part of our role right now is having an ear to the ground, finding out what’s going on and knowing where everyone sits and fits.
We are also ensuring that we’re across industry developments that are happening at a fairly rapid pace. Like, for example, the introduction of Spotify into the audiobook market and the impact of AI. And then, just the general navigation of the market and what is happening out there. We’re not seeing a lot of Australian books in the top fifty. So it is being across that, knowing when to talk to publishers about pushing things. I think it’s a fairly critical role at the moment, and a lot of a lot of authors rely on our knowledge of what’s happening out there.
There’s this idea that agents are in demand in Australia, with few to go around. Do you find that to be true?
Absolutely. There are not a lot of agencies that are actively taking on new clients, but there are a lot of people wanting to write books. I think a lot of people tend to assume that the end goal for writing has to be publication, which then makes it hard for people who should be getting published because they have to compete against a tidal wave of submissions.
A lot of my clients now come through recommendations from existing clients. My list is quite big and quite full, so I’m in a position where I’m not actively seeking out new authors all the time. Of course, if something amazing comes along, then I’ll always read it, and if you have that sort of stamp of approval from someone whose opinion you trust it makes it easier to make that decision.
I think a lot of people tend to assume that the end goal for writing has to be publication.
Something that we’ve more recently been talking about is how authors of ‘romantasy’, a huge growing area thanks to BookTok, are all looking for overseas agents. There’s no one here that really specialises in that genre. It’s interesting to see something like that happen. Most people who want agents in Australia are writing in that more traditional adult fiction or non-fiction space.
Are you open to romance writers then?
I am, but it would have to be the right thing for me. Some of those books…I don’t love them. (Laughs.) They sell a lot, but I’m a big believer in not just jumping on trend. But I’m open-minded to different genres. It’s exciting to see where the new wave of Australian literary fiction is coming from because it’s very different from twenty years ago. Fiction is probably more hybrid or outside of what we would traditionally consider to be literary fiction. So that means I would always be open to something in that more romantic genre if it really spoke to me.
What do you look for in new clients?
Someone who is writing something that I just love. I want to always approach a book as a reader first rather than an industry professional. When you really love something, you can be passionate about pitching it to people.
I also look for someone who has a good deal of knowledge about the industry but is prepared to take feedback and be guided. Someone who is good at getting out there and talking to people, who has an idea about how they need to position themselves or market themselves. I find it’s important to meet people first to see if you’re on the same page and what plans they have for another book or where they see themselves in a few years’ time. Having those early conversations is really important.
What are the benefits for writers who sign to a big agency like Curtis Brown?
I think we have a good reputation because we have good relationships with people all over the world and have done for a very long time. Because we are a bigger agency, publishers will listen to us when we’re talking about renegotiating. Because we have a lot of really big clients, people will often take notice of our other authors. We’re also very on top of all the current terms and conditions that should be in publishing agreements. We also have a dedicated accounts department. Most smaller agencies can’t do that, they outsource bookkeepers and things like that. We have this really established admin setup for our authors.
A selection of titles by authors represented by Pip Masson at Curtis Brown Australia.
You’ve said that people skills are the most important characteristic of a literary agent. What kind of things do you keep in mind when working with authors?
No one is the same, no one’s situation is the same. You really have to hone your diplomacy skills and intuition and understand how people work. Some people require a lot more handholding than others. Some people need to talk through every process. Some people don’t. Some people want to hide away and write their book and deliver it to you. Some people want to be heavily involved in the business side of things like marketing, publicity and sales. Some just don’t care. They just want to write. You have to adapt and know the best way to deal with each person.
Some people need to talk through every process. Some people don’t.
I think you have to be a really good listener and understand what someone wants out of the relationship with you. I heard a great analogy once that having a long-term relationship with an agent is like being in a really long-term marriage, where nothing really exciting happens, it’s slow and steady. And then with publishers it’s these great kind of love affairs. It’s true that there is this intense creative relationship between authors and publishers that can sometimes go wrong. What we want to be able to provide is just a safe, steady and calm environment for them to come back to us whenever they need us. I think particularly now, when things are changing at publishers, you can lose your person at a publishing house. Your agent is the person that you have to depend on.
Do you have any advice for emerging writers with manuscripts?
Read as much as you can. There are a lot of people who write but don’t read enough. It’s a craft. You have to work on it. Each book gets better because you’ve learnt something from the process of writing that book. And you might have read something and thought, My God, how amazing that Max Porter did this, or, I read the new Lisa Jewell, and what a great way to do the twist. I think that’s the way that you get better at writing, reading as well as constantly working on your own work.
Work on the book until you are absolutely sure that you would be happy to go out with it. It’s really competitive, and debut fiction is becoming really difficult for publishers to publish and get off the ground, so it needs to be something that will really wow people. Also, it’s important to support the industry, particularly the Australian industry, by attending people’s events. I feel that is a way you can get yourself in front of people as well. It’s like any business, you want to have a sense of having colleagues or being a known quantity.
Why is getting harder for debut authors?
Due to the economic climate, publishers will be taking on fewer debuts. They’ll be working either with the authors that they have or looking to poach established authors. I think it will be much harder to get your foot in the door. We’ve had a really great few years when Covid hit, debuts were working well. But now, people are going into bookshops and they’re not backing a horse that they don’t know. They want to spend their money on someone that they know or have heard about through word of mouth.
But one of the things I love about publishing is that there is always a book that comes out of nowhere. The reading public is way more sophisticated than publishers think. There’s a lot of looking sideways. Will that book work? What’s working for someone else? Sometimes you have to take a little bit of a risk.
How has your job changed over this time?
I was thinking about ebooks the other day. When they came around, people said the print book was dead. But ebooks have really plateaued, and they have never overtaken print sales. But now what’s happening with audio is different, but it’s also opening up a new market. So, I think one of the things that’s really changed, which is super exciting, is that there are all these formats now. Some books are selling more in audio. Some have a healthy ebook number. Some are really big in print. So that has been a big change.
I think internationally things are changing because these conglomerates are coming together. Publishers want more rights now—I mean, they’ve always wanted all the rights—but it’s becoming more difficult to separate out rights. Book adaptation has become huge in the last few years with all the streamers. It continues to be an enormous part of our business, which ten years ago just wasn’t the case at all.
Social media has been a big change, there has been a lot of publishing of social-media stars. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Social media can also be great because you can be more across what your authors are doing. But also, you can see what they’re doing. (Laughs.) Sometimes they should be writing and not on social media, which I think can be distraction. It can spread misinformation and can cause a lot of angst. Even though the writing community is incredibly supportive, naturally everyone is competitive so it creates all these kinds of conversations that we probably don’t need to be having about other people’s publishing careers.
How does the process of selling film and TV rights work?
We always reserve film and television rights in a publishing agreement so that they’re the author’s, and we then sell them for them. We know all the major producers here, and we regularly meet with them and send out newsletters and pitches to them. And then we also work with co-agents in the US, who are based in LA, and they handle all the big American deals for us. When someone is interested in adapting a book, they make an offer to option it, that option agreement is negotiated and then the development process happens from there.
How involved are writers with adaptations?
Most of the time, writers don’t want to be involved. I think now people have realised it is a very different medium, and it’s hard. I mean, they might like to be consulted along the way. Someone like Hannah [Kent], for example, is a very different kettle of fish. Some of her work she’s adapting herself.
We always reserve film and television rights in a publishing agreement.
Like any situation, no one deal is the same, and we just manage that. And hopefully, once you get the option signed, a producer will be able to attach a writer and talent and get things going. The hit rate is much higher than it ever has been. The downside is that it’s harder to get eyes on all of those things, and then that means it doesn’t necessarily have an impact on book sales. I remember when The Slap was adapted into the ABC TV series, the tie-in edition sales for that were huge. It was at number one for a long time, and I just don’t think it happens in that way anymore. The streamers don’t always set a release date in advance, sometimes maybe two weeks. You can’t get a book into production and out there at that point.
Adaptations of books represented by Pippa Masson at Curtis Brown.
Could you tell us a little bit about the rights to Kenneth Cook’s Wake In Fright? It has been reported that you were instrumental in the 2017 adaptation coming to life.
(Laughs.) That was so weird because all of the documents were lost in a fire, so we were never clear who had what rights from the original. Things were different in the sixties and the seventies when they sold those rights—they didn’t actually include television rights. We found a loophole. It took a lot of contractual unpicking and looking through state library documents and just a whole bunch of things to figure out that the television rights specifically rested with the estate. It was like a mystery novel, finding all the clues. And then it was really satisfying when they were able to go ahead with it, and I thought they did such a great job of that adaptation. I have to say that Helen Bowden from Lingo was really persistent. She pushed that a lot.
You sell Australian books into international markets, with some notable big deals. Is it a challenge to attract overseas interest?
It’s particularly true at the moment. I think international publishing houses want to focus on the people in their own market, authors they can use for publicity and promotion on the ground. And it’s just a lot easier, they have the rights and things like that. Timing has become a big issue too. They often don’t want to publish after us, need things much earlier in advance than is possible on Australian publishing timelines. Sending out something to the US that isn’t quite ready can be its death knell.
Though, I do think Australians do pretty well for a small country. We have some really big exports now, and we have shown that there are lots of established and new authors who are able to be published in lots of different territories and published well according to their market. But it is a lot harder. I think it’s the hardest it’s been to get deals in the UK and in the US. We do sell some things direct, but we also sell via a co-agent. I think finding another agent who is as passionate about the book as you are in that territory makes things much easier.
Does the same go for Australian work in translation? Is that also happening less?
Yes, because there is so much material out there. I think part of the issue is people don’t want to wait for the translation, and they are reading the export edition from the UK or the US in English instead. So that is cutting out a bit of a market as well.
When you’re selling books into international markets, do you find that there are things lost in cultural translation? What kind of feedback do you receive?
Yeah. The US is very conservative. There are certain things that they just don’t like because they don’t think they’d work in their broader market. For example, anything that’s too dark. Dead children are one of them. Crime can be tricky. Children’s fiction is hard as well, especially in the US with everything that’s happening with book banning. Traditionally, I feel our children’s publishing has been a bit grittier, but things that are working are more in that middle-grade space or picture books.
People say, ‘Oh, I really want something Australian,’ and then you send it to them and they say, ‘That’s too Australian’. So, it’s like, what do you want? I think for a long time, people wanted outback and country. Jane Harper obviously started a real movement with that. But there’s a limit to the appetite for that, especially once someone’s done it really well.
You also work in KidLit, representing authors like Sally Rippin, Robin Klein and Jane Godwin. How is the children’s market going?
KidLit is having a bit of a tough time, and that’s mostly to do with the retail landscape. Fifty to sixty per cent of kid’s books go through the discount department stores, and now Target is folding into Kmart and they’re getting rid of most of the Target stores. Kmart is very selective about what they take on and it’s very hard for a lot of publishers to make the discounts work. Scholastic now tend to just sell their own books through clubs and fairs, whereas it used to be everywhere.
KidLit is having a bit of a tough time, and that’s mostly to do with the retail landscape.
It’s really hard to crack the market. In the top books that were sold last year, Where Is the Green Sheep? by Mem Fox is still in the top ten. And Bluey. Buyers aren’t necessarily willing to take a risk on kid’s books. They go with what they know. It’s just a self-fulfilling prophecy. But all of my kid’s authors are people who are doing really well in their own categories. It’s just they have to work really hard. It’s about volume too. Sally [Rippin] is such a tour de force and has written so many books.
Do you have any predictions for the next big thing in publishing?
(Laughs.) I wish I did.
In terms of genre, I think that whole sad-girl lit is going to evolve into a different thing. The Sally Rooney sort of vibe is changing. I’ve seen a few mashups of that with horror or thriller, which is interesting. More plot-driven than an examination of self.
I think that we’re going to see this current trend of fiction dominating for a while because I think people are just so sick of bad news. Non-fiction has really fallen off a cliff. It’s not anywhere near the numbers it was, and the books that are selling in big numbers are things like RecipeTin Eats or Atomic Habits—books that are about how to live your life better or live well. Certainly, it’s very different to what it used to be like.
I suspect the BookTok thing is going to keep going on, and we’re going to see a lot more of that coming from Australia. Australian publishers will be wanting to originate some of that material. So they’ll be looking for that.
