Pub Talk is an interview series where we chat to some of Australia’s most experienced and influential publishers, editors and agents about the industry and the many pathways to publication for new writers.
Martin Shaw is a literary agent based in Leipzig, Germany, with over thirty years of experience in Australian books and publishing. His agency, Shaw Literary, brings together fine writers with great publishers, both within Australia and internationally.
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You’ve been a literary agent since 2015, but you’ve worked in the book industry for over thirty years. Can you give us a bit of an overview of your journey to where you are today?
I worked at Readings for a very long time and worked my way up, as you invariably do in bookselling (and publishing!). So from weekends, to part-time, to full-time. I was the guy on the counter or shelving books for a long, long time. And I didn’t go into publishing from there like quite a few people do, and perhaps I should have! [laughs] Ultimately, I became the head book buyer for Readings for fifteen years, and really enjoyed that role.
But then I moved to Germany with my family. I agreed, of course, to come here, but didn’t know what I was going to do (which, looking back, was rather naive). But I knew I loved the book business, so I thought of agenting as a way of keeping my hand in. I found it fascinating too because although I thought I knew a lot about the book business, I actually knew nothing about agenting. So I learned, and continue to learn a great deal. It’s been very stimulating!
I knew I loved the book business, so I thought of agenting as a way of keeping my hand in.
Have you always been a free agent with your own business?
I started off with Alex Adsett Literary, who I’d known for a long time. I didn’t join her company formally but worked under her auspices. She was a mentor, basically.
So I was generating my own head of steam after three or four years, and we talked about me operating under my own name. And then Covid happened. It was almost perfect because I was setting up my own agency and it was a completely level playing field in many ways: everybody was operating virtually. So, the obvious disadvantage I have of not being based in Australia was cancelled out. It didn’t matter.
In the acquisition process, do you approach writers or do they always approach you?
I don’t and I never have—possibly I should! Obviously, I could look around easily and find all sorts of people I’d like to represent. But I’m not actively looking. I expect people to come to me if they feel I can do something for them. So people are cold-calling me, basically, and I try to be open-minded.
Sometimes my existing authors will say they know somebody I should have my eye on, which is clearly a boost for someone who ends up approaching me. Ben Walter introduced me to Adam Ousten, for example. Two lovely guys in Hobart, both really talented writers. And agents love getting recommendations. If you’re an author and you think someone is really great, say so! Try and give them a leg up! But it’s got to be genuine, naturally.
Other people are aware of me via Twitter, my main social media outlet. They follow me on there, some sort of relationship forms, and then they approach me and let me know they have something they’re working on. Which doesn’t really change anything—I can love people on Twitter but still not see the potential of their work. But it seems logical to say: ‘Hey, you know me a little bit and here’s my book.’
Recently you tweeted that you get very few submissions from young people. Why do you think that is?
It’s more a feeling than anything I’ve tried to quantify. But the more I read about Australia—the cost of living, the rental prices, interest rates, the amount of money people are handing over just to survive—it simply makes me wonder. That’s why living in Germany is so pleasant. You don’t have the rental stress. You can’t be forced to move out, you’ve got security as a renter. In Australia, you’re being turfed out every other year of whatever property you’re in.
The headspace required for creative work, that’s what I worry about. So it’s not even just about the money side itself, it’s the headspace that I imagine people are in. So, mostly, I’m getting submissions from people who are more comfortable. And I think that a certain sense of security in daily life applied to more people in the past and applies to fewer people now, certainly to anyone under forty.
Agents love getting recommendations. If you’re an author and you think someone is really great, say so!
What kind of advice would you offer to aspiring authors starting out?
You’ve got to do the work, and the work has got to be good enough. I notice that many aspiring writers clearly love the literary world, but you’ve got to have the product at the end of the day—that’s the only thing that will open doors. So maybe it’s better not to be so visible in the ‘scene’ and just go away and do the courses, do whatever it is that helps you achieve your goal, and then come and be, with any luck, part of it. That to me should be the strategy.
I’ve heard about writers waiting too long to approach an agent. Is that a common issue?
It’s better to decide at the beginning: Am I going to try to sell my book myself or am I going to get an agent? Don’t decide halfway through the process.
The problem is that so many authors will write their books, do their ASA courses, write their letters and synopses etc., and send them out to half a dozen or more publishers, and then of course nothing happens. And then six months later they say, ‘Oh, I wonder if you want to be the agent for my book?’ Sometimes they don’t tell me they’ve already done these submissions, and I only find out down the track. And I think, Why have you done this? This is the worst strategy! From the agent’s point of view, half the opportunities are already gone, and it spoils things considerably.
How important is the initial pitch to you? If it’s not polished, or the synopsis isn’t good, does that torpedo the possibility of taking them on?
You can make some rookie errors. A lot of people don’t seem to get anyone else to even look their submission over. I’m not expecting to be blown away by the letter itself. I’m expecting it to be very neutral language.
Really what you’re trying to achieve is to get me to look at page one of the manuscript. Everything that irritates me somewhat before that point is not good. Sometimes people write some very unfortunate expressions in their letters, or their synopsis extends over several pages. I just sigh. Just one page is almost always enough! I just want my curiosity to be aroused—that’s all you should be trying to achieve. Some sort of modesty, not over-egging it. There’s no magic at all involved.
Do you consider the publishing history of aspiring authors? Literary journals, anthologies, other pieces of work that aren’t a published book…
I’m always happy to see the names of journals. It helps situate the person in the space that you think they want to be. It also suggests that people have been applying themselves. Basically, it’s an expression of being serious.
A different issue is that some people are coming out of PhDs, with a thesis component that is a book. There’s a little bit of a problem there because there’s a difference in how that work is assessed by academics or creative writing lecturers and the commercial prospects of a book. The authors’ expectations become somewhat higher, I suspect, but it doesn’t make much of a difference to me.
I notice that many aspiring writers clearly love the literary world, but you’ve got to have the product at the end of the day.
You have an eclectic list of writers, working in different genres and forms. Is this intentional or more organic?
It’s somewhat intentional. I’ve just talked about things being commercial, but that’s not my primary criteria—which it would be for almost every other agent. For sure, agenting is a business like any other, you’re trying to make money. But I do take on books that I know are not going to make much money, and that’s simply because I love them and I think they deserve to be published. If I can help achieve that, all well and good.
Meanwhile, crime fiction is where quite a lot of the activity is at in contemporary Australian publishing. It’s a category that always sells and indeed has been booming in recent years. I’m happy to be in that space too—one of the highlights of my Readings career was being there right at the start of the Stieg Larsson phenomenon. I ordered an enormous initial quantity and got a letter from his London publisher thanking me for my support of this, at that time, unknown Swede! So I now have four crime novelists. But it’s not just me trying to be a part of a trend, it’s because I really like their books and they are also different from what I imagine more generic crime fiction is like. They all have something interesting to say.
Can you tell us a little bit about the financial side. How do agent commissions work?
I can’t speak for other agencies, but there is a sort of unwritten standard of fifteen per cent commission on the initial advance and any royalties that flow through subsequently. All funds generated by the work appear in my bank account first, and then I pass it on to the author. That also applies to any film and television deals that might eventuate.
What kinds of things are you doing in the lead-up to a deal? Do you help writers to develop their work?
I try to take a pretty hands-on approach. I’m probably going to like the manuscript at least ninety per cent or more, but I’ll certainly be providing a lot of input if there’s anything that doesn’t work to my mind. I do send back copyedits sometimes, just basic little problems that I see. I’m not in any way a formally trained editor, but I can pick up typos. I do try to get my hands dirty, in a way, usually because I just love the book and I’ll read it at least twice.
My main input is the pitch letter that I write to publishers, that’s my main activity in the process to get us in the door. Occasionally someone will say: ‘You sold that to us really well!’ Which is satisfying feedback, I must say!
Do you think about the compatibility of manuscripts and authors with publishing houses? Is there a matchmaking process?
That’s definitely a large part of my role. I spend quite a bit of time planning, plotting, thinking of particular editors within publishing houses, and deciding who I think will go for a manuscript. Over time, the more you do this, the more familiar you get with what publishers go for. It’s important to keep track of who’s who, what other agents are selling and who they are selling it to.
Most often, I make a list for a first round of submissions, the people who I think are the most natural fit or the people who I’d most want to buy the book. Ideally, you don’t need a second round. I really hate wasting people’s time too, so sending something that they’re not going to like or isn’t for them is something I’m eager to avoid.
I spend quite a bit of time planning, plotting, thinking of particular editors within publishing houses.
And offers get more competitive when there are more publishers interested?
Yes, it’s certainly in the author’s interest. An agent is also trying to get the best deal for the author after all. And it’s not so often that a publisher is seeing something exclusively from an agent (though sometimes this happens when I have something that just seems a perfect match).
A recent UK study suggests that debut authors struggle with a lack of support from publishers. From an agent’s perspective, do you think this bears true?
I did read that study, and it didn’t resonate with me personally. I don’t have a bunch of unhappy authors, nor can I think of anyone who I know has been disappointed by their experience.
I think it’s also about expectations. Quite a lot of my authors are debuts and are grateful for whatever happens. It’s only a negative if you have been paid a substantial amount of money and it doesn’t work. But publishers don’t usually pay a lot of money for first books in any case.
Are you involved much with the book once it’s been picked up?
Not so much directly. I’m kept in the loop with plans, of course. And I’ll have an opinion about release dates, book covers, endorsements, things like that. In that respect, I can sometimes match a book with someone I think will really respond to it, and that’s good because that’s not the ‘author’s buddy’ phenomenon, it’s a genuine expression of enthusiasm from someone who doesn’t know the author personally at all.
My involvement, then, is at its most intense in the initial selling process, and then it sort of declines thereafter. Where I stay more actively involved depends on what rights have been sold—if I’ve got the world rights, or film and television rights, then I’ll be trying hard to sell those (which can be a very extended exercise it must be said!).
You live in Europe but deal in the Antipodean book trade, as you refer to it. One of the questions that comes up from aspiring authors is whether their books have the potential to reach international readers. What kinds of books can reach these markets?
It’s very difficult. The places you are looking to sell into are often in a poor state themselves. The UK book market, for instance, is a sort of disaster in many ways. Somebody was telling me the other day that 70% of sales are via Amazon in that book market. So it’s largely bestseller or celebrity driven. There are good bookshops, to be sure, but to get into places like Waterstones is a helluva task, and all the other bookstores of the land are pretty tiny. So, it’s got to be a genuine commercial proposition, or almost always.
From where I sit, I typically have the rather sinking feeling that in the Global North, nobody is much interested in Australian writing, generally. Or certainly at the genuine literary end. I guess what I try to do then, in my own little way, is try to get a few authors a bit better known. It’s an area I like to—I don’t like to say play—but despite the incredible difficulty of it all, I at least want to make the attempt. It doesn’t happen often, and sometimes the existing Australian publisher holds the world rights. But when I do have something to sell which I think should be on the world map, I’ll give it my really best shot. And I’ve had the odd success, happily.
I typically have the rather sinking feeling that in the global north, nobody is much interested in Australian writing, generally.
What do you think about the state of writing and publishing in Australia now compared to when you started?
I think the quality level is really high and the industry is simply really, really impressive. And that’s across editorial, design, marketing…
It would be lovely for the industry to support one or two more publishers. To my mind, the industry is perpetually one or two publishers short, in terms of indie publishing. I do understand it’s almost impossible financially, of course. For me, the most unfortunate event in Australian publishing was Sleepers closing down. So much exciting stuff was happening while they were around.
So nowadays, I care desperately for the likes of Transit Lounge, Upswell, Puncher & Wattmann, and so on, because without those guys we would be an utter disaster. You want that diversity in publishing, you want to see books that originate not necessarily just from a commercial angle but from a literary angle, as contributions to literary culture. There are only so many existing, fully fledged indie publishers, and they can’t publish everything, after all.
Your answer is refreshing because there is this flippant take I’ve seen that the industry needs to publish fewer books.
No, no, no. I do think about this quite often. Australia and New Zealand constitute around 30 million people, about half the size of the UK. But when you think about how much is published here, surely we are completely under-publishing. To me, there are so few debuts for instance, considering the size of this market. It just doesn’t seem that many to me.
With increased diversity, something that’s improved somewhat over recent years, more voices coming in means we need more books, I think. More space.
That’s true. It is slowly starting to change. You not only need the writers, but you also need a diversity of publishers, editors…agents too (laughs). You can see how things have changed a lot. Not that I can remember it clearly enough, but compared to when I started, Australian publishing is looking very different now.
Is there anything else you would like to see more of?
I’d like to see more risks being taken. I don’t need to be convinced that publishing a worthy title can be a marginal commercial proposition—of course, it’s a marginal commercial proposition! There’s a quote about publishing: ‘You should publish what people want to read and what people should read.’
Business is tough these days, sure—for publishers with printing prices in particular, and retailers are really struggling in the economic climate. You can understand the risk-aversion then, the fact that it is a fairly small market, and all these other reasons that get rolled out. But there’s some sort of onus to have the odd book that’s not going to do anything spectacular to the publisher’s bank balance but is going to be a significant contribution to culture.
You want to see books that originate not necessarily just from a commercial angle but from a literary angle.
Michael Winkler’s book is a nice example of this, defying the odds and getting onto the Miles Franklin shortlist.
Indeed. That’s an excellent example because I tried very, very hard to sell that book to conventional publishers, who all turned it down! Except for one, because they were a bit off my radar at the time, which was Puncher & Wattmann, who went on to publish it eventually. Michael, to his great credit, still believed in the book and said I’m going to publish it myself, and the rest is of course history!
And this year you had two more authors in the Miles running, Adam Ouston and Yumna Kassab.
I guess I take a little personal satisfaction out of these prize listings because in some cases, I’m like, ‘I told you how good this was!’ So it’s satisfying for sure. And to have two authors, Eloise Grills and Adriane Howell, on the Stella Prize shortlist a few months back—that was terrifically exciting. And it sort of backs up what I’ve been saying.
The Adam Ouston book in particular has occupied my mind since its Miles longlisting—small press, nobody else wanted etc. In fact, I got really exasperated, as I had sent it out with the highest of hopes and felt it was one of the most marvellous books I’d read in years. After a little while and rejection after rejection, I thought, bugger this, I know the one person I know will appreciate this book! Which was Daniel Davis Wood at Splice in the UK, a little press he runs over there. He will get this, I was sure! And, of course, he was totally all over it. So, he bought the world rights and sold it himself to Puncher & Wattmann.
Shaw Literary represented authors who have been listed for the Mile Franklin Award: Waypoints (2022), The Lovers (2022) and Grimmish (2021).
What are the highlights of your career?
There are so many. The awards are, of course, very exciting—be it the Prime Minister’s, the various state Premiers’ prizes, or the Stella or Miles.
Recently, I’ve been proud of my work with Jen Craig. I’ve now got a global audience for her—small to be sure, but one that includes some excellent readers. And she’s available in her own country again too as of this year, because she was basically out of print before.
Pip Adam, a writer I encountered a few years ago, is just insanely good too. With NZ being such a tiny market, this was a writer I thought so deserved to travel. So now one of her earlier books, The New Animals, is coming out in the US later this year from the Dorothy Project, an incredibly cool US feminist book publisher that only publishes two books a year—so they were impossible odds, you would have thought! But I tried anyway, and as it turned out they loved it. That’s been really lovely and a huge career highlight.
I take a little personal satisfaction out of these prize listings because in some cases, I’m like, ‘I told you how good this was!’
Paul Dalgarno has been a really nice story for me too. The first contact we had arose from a blog post he had written about his book being remaindered, which was his first book, and simply how he was naturally sad about that. Fast forward to now and he’s had multiple books published, including a UK release in August.
To come back to where we started, with bookselling. As a bookseller, it’s a really special job, because you see books before anybody else. You get loads of exciting proof copies, and it’s a real buzz. But, as it turns out, for me it’s an even cooler job to see those books even earlier in their lives, right at the very beginning, indeed to be their very first reader in some cases. And then if you do get excited about a manuscript, and you do manage to sell it, it’s such a huge, huge buzz. I sometimes think if there was a ‘deal cam’ in my office, people would find it hilarious how I’m often to be seen jumping up and down in sheer joy when an offer comes through.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Catch up on our other Pub Talk interviews with Brigid Mullane and Rachel Bin Salleh.
