Pub Talk: Brigid Mullane from Ultimo Press

The Kill Your Darlings Podcast
The Kill Your Darlings Podcast
Pub Talk: Brigid Mullane from Ultimo Press
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Welcome to the first episode of our new interview series, Pub Talk, where we chat to some of Australia’s most experienced and influential publishers, editors and agents. During these conversations you’ll receive insiders’ information about the industry, as well as advice from experts on the many pathways to publication for new writers.

We’re thrilled to have Brigid Mullane as our first guest. She is the commissioning editor at Ultimo Press. Previously, she worked at Hachette Australia as both a managing editor and a senior editor.

Tune in to hear KYD publishing director Rebecca Starford and Brigid discuss the role of a commissioning editor, Ultimo Press’s plans for finding and publishing new writers, some of the press’s publication initiatives over the coming months, and how Australian publishers need to do better on diversity in their organisations.

Do you have a manuscript you’d like published? Check out KYD’s many writing courses that help writers get their work into the hands of editors.

Our theme song is Johnny Ripper’s ‘Typing’.

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Let us know what you think by rating and reviewing in your app of choice!

TRANSCRIPT

Alice Cottrell: Hello and welcome to Kill Your Darlings’ brand new podcast series called Pub Talk. Every couple of months, we’ll be chatting to some of the most experienced and influential publishers, editors and agents about the Australian publishing industry, and revealing the many pathways to publication for new writers. We hope you enjoy this first episode. 

Rebecca Starford: My name is Rebecca Starford, and I’m the publishing director at KYD. I’m also a published author of two books, a memoir called Bad Behaviour and a novel called The Imitator. For many years, I’ve also worked as an editor, both in house as well as freelance. So I’m looking forward to hosting this upcoming conversation with these different hats on. This is the first episode in a series of conversations we’re having with leading publishers, editors and agents about the Australian publishing industry. Each episode is designed to give you an insider’s guide to the processes that make up publishing books. And for any budding writers out there, some advice and guidance about how to get your work into the right hands, and what development you might undertake in advance of that submission. So I’m so thrilled and excited to have Brigid Mullane as our first guest of the series. Brigid is the commissioning editor at Ultimo Press. Previously, she worked at Hachette Australia as both a managing editor and a senior editor. She was a communications manager at Writers Victoria, and is a former editor of Kill Your Darlings magazine, which means we still claim you as one of our own! 

Brigid Mullane: (Laughs). 

Rebecca Starford: Originally from Melbourne, Brig is now based in Sydney. So welcome Brig and a huge thanks for coming on to chat! 

Brigid Mullane: No worries, hi Bec, it’s lovely to hear your voice. 

Rebecca Starford: So as I mentioned in your introduction, you are the commissioning editor at Ultimo Press, and this is a new publishing house. How long have you been up and running now? 

Brigid Mullane: I think we’re actually coming up to our first year birthday in September, but that is from inception to now. So I started in January of this year, so still new. 

Rebecca Starford: So look. Tell us a little bit about Ultimo, for for listeners who aren’t familiar. As you said, you know, you’re relatively new. Tell us about the size of the company and the kind of books that you’re publishing and also, you know, the intentions of the press as well. 

Brigid Mullane: Sure. So Ultimo Press is a new independent press. We’re based out of Ultimo in Sydney, which is where we get our name from. The founder James Kellow sort of noticed there’s a really vibrant indie scene in Melbourne, the majority of the indie publishers are concentrated in Melbourne—and in Sydney we are kind of dominated by what’s called the multinationals or the big houses. So places like Hachette, where I was before, Pan Macmillan, the really kind of heavy hitters. And we’ve got staff that have come from all of those big houses, so we sort of wanted to have a press that took the lessons of the big houses and combined it with the freedom and creativity that you get from an indie. We’re backed by Hardie Grant, which is one of Australia’s largest independent media companies. So we have kind of the support of Hardie Grant, but this commitment or ethos to trying to uncover, discover, publish emerging writers from around Australia. At the moment, our list is—we did eight books this year, so that’s quite a highly curated list, and we’re ramping up to probably 20-odd books next year, so that we can give the kind of time and care to each author and their work that we want to be able to give. And I think we’re aiming to be a place that publishes exciting and progressive work, and to give platform to authors that might not get a run in some of those bigger houses. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, fantastic. So I mean, it’s really interesting to hear, as you mentioned, that kind of, you know, I think it sounds like a lovely amalgamation of the indie spirit and ethos and intentions, which is again where, you know, I mean, you know, that true kind of vision to unearth new talent, and you know, to perhaps be a little more independent or even experimental at times, with a publishing list, coupled nicely with Hardie Grant’s, you know, I suppose, size and scope and reach, presumably in the area of sales and distribution. I take it that would be particularly… 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, very helpful. At the moment the Ultimo team is six, so to have the backing of the support of the sales reps from Hardie Grant out there selling the books is really, really helpful. They’ve been doing a great job. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And I mean, six is a small number in terms of this scope of other publishing houses as well. So you know, it sounds like you guys are really kind of punching well above your weight in terms of that output. 

Brigid Mullane: We’re definitely hoping to recruit more people! (Laughs). 

Rebecca Starford: Oh that’s fantastic, excellent. 

Brigid Mullane: That is not the end, that is not the end, that’s just the start. 

Rebecca Starford: Of course. So we’ll talk a little more about some of the books and projects that you’re involved in. But you are the commissioning editor there at Ultimo—I don’t know about you, but often when I talk to other people who I don’t know about the fact that I’m an editor, there’s not really a strong understanding about what an editor actually does. And then I suppose with your role as commissioning editor, there are other elements involved in that job role as well. So what exactly are you doing there at the company? (Both laugh). 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, I think it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because the title of commissioning editor, I think, is a confusing one. In the UK, a commissioning editor is what we would call a publisher here. So the person who seeks out the titles and publishes the titles. Here, I think a commissioning editor sort of sits halfway between a publisher and an editor. So I have kind of two…streams to what I’m doing—one is seeking out new work to publish, trying to find authors, taking books to acquisition and finding things to publish, that’s the commissioning part of my job. And then the other part of my job is helping support the publishers in their publishing work. So that might be helping with their schedules, helping, um… do second reads of their books. So it’s kind of this dual role of both finding things and then helping the other publishers realise their vision on their things. Does that, is that what you found? 

Rebecca Starford: I think so. Yeah. I mean, like you say, there’s—I think there’s a kind of understanding of what an editor does in the kind of nitty-gritty, hands-on aspect of editing material. But from company to company, it’s so different, isn’t it? So I mean, when I worked at Text, my role there was as an editor, but you really, the process that you—because the structure of Text as a company is a little bit different, you have editors, senior editor, and then you have a single publisher. This is of a staff of about, say, 25. But my role as editor, it was for all the editors in the company, was really taking the book from the moment of acquisition all the way through to to print, you know? I mean, I wasn’t sending the files to print, but you’re still quite involved in that process as well, and checking over proofs and everything like that that come back from the printer. So yeah, you’re kind of managing the life of that book, whereas for other organisations, the focus is perhaps solely on the editorial work for the role of the editor. And then once that work is done, it goes back to perhaps the publisher of a company as well. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah. I think that’s interesting because one of the things—so Hachette was actually my first in-house position ever. And I got a job there as a senior editor, and what I was really surprised about with that is how much of that job was really a project management job, and not as much an editorial job in terms of like, what I would have had as a freelance editor, which is like sitting with the text and you know, reading multiple times, and it was a much quicker kind of project management based job, where you’re reading maybe once and then trying to get the text along the production timeline? So I found that really interesting, it was completely different to what my expectations were of being an in-house editor. And to be honest, probably, like, better suited to what my skillset is? (Laughs). But it was something that surprised me for sure. 

Rebecca Starford: And I think there’s no right formula, that’s what I’ve learned as well. I think there are many ways of approaching that editorial process. And you know, what we’re talking about now reveals how complex it is, actually. And I think different writers work differently too—you know, some writers really enjoy working very closely with an editor, we can talk a little bit more about that, you know, often throughout, you know, large swathes of their writing career. And then other times, you know, there’s perhaps some benefits to mixing things up and to having some different editorial sort of eyes on your work, depending on the project as well. So yeah, that’s really interesting to get that perspective. You know, both you described your work at Hachette and now at Ultimo. So when it comes to your work as a commissioning editor, what does a typical day look like for you at the moment? 

Brigid Mullane: I guess my job is kind of split into these two areas. So on the commissioning side, I might be scrolling through Twitter, trying to see if there’s anyone who’s posted interesting links to articles, looking at mags like KYD to see if there’s anyone in there who might have a longer book project, and reaching out to them. I might be reading the submissions inbox or talking to authors that I’ve already reached out to about their proposals. I might be getting one of those proposals ready for an acquisitions meeting, so kind of preparing to pitch the author’s idea to the wider team, or I might be, you know, in the contracting stage getting the book idea finalised and then working with the author on their book in that sense. On the other side, I might be talking to freelance copyeditors or checking a copy edit, talking to typesetters, um…helping get the production of the ebooks done. Because we’re, like, a small team, I’ve learnt all this stuff that was happening in the big houses without my, you know, with very little input from me? (Laughs). 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, yeah, yep—a whole new world. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, look—and I remember when I was at KYD, I did a little bit of printer liaison, but this is a whole new, (Laughs), a whole new kettle of fish. So on that side of it’s a lot of kind of production and scheduling and, and reading and getting things ready for the sales reps so that they can go out and sell the books and making sure that all of the books’ information is online, so that if people want to buy them, they can. So it’s a really varied role which has kept me highly entertained, because I like learning new things. But that said, I will be happy when the team expands, (Laughs) and I can pass on some of this information to other people. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, no, it’s such a fascinating description of your work, and so interesting -it’s the kind of, you know, you’re looking, you can see in your description there, from, you know, you’re looking for new material, whether that, you know, how that be through checking out new writers’ work, whether it’s online or through other magazines, through to the kind of finished production stages and managing that, and ensuring the books are out in the world and that kind of the messaging and the packaging around them when they’re sold into trade is really clear and targeted, it’s fascinating. And I think it reveals too this idea—oh well, I mean, it debunks a little bit of a myth about editors being, you know, maybe not open to new material, that the walls are quite hard to kind of scale when it comes to work passing through into an editor’s hands. But you’ve described, you know, being pretty hungry for looking for new material. Do you think that’s… that kind of hunger comes from you now working for a new organisation that’s looking to build a list? Or have you found that the other editors you’ve worked with and previously that there is always that hunger driving editors to find new voices? 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think for me personally, this role is new to me, and I’m really keen to build my list and find people—the kind of publishing that I want to do, which is supporting emerging non-fiction writers. I don’t know that they’ve been given that many opportunities, I think non-fiction in Australia is particularly hard to get a crack in if you’re not a celebrity or, or you don’t already have a really big following. So I don’t think we’ve nurtured the space between some of the amazing authors that will be in KYD or Liminal or some of these great literary mags we have, and then them going on to have a career. 

Rebecca Starford: Yep. 

Brigid Mullane: And I kind of want to be helping in that space, like that’s what I want to be publishing, and I want to be supporting those writers into having a career. So in some ways, I have to seek them out, because there hasn’t really been a pathway, I don’t think, or it’s been a tough one. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah. I agree. That’s a really interesting, you know, thing that you’re mentioning, because, you know, and we’ll talk about this a bit more, you know, there are many opportunities for emerging fiction writers, I think, in the kind of award space, but yeah, that kind of nurturing and development of narrative non-fiction or memoir or any other kind of non-fiction. And maybe that has something to do with the, you know, slow decline and demise of the broadsheets as well as a space to develop those sorts of voices. You know, the kind of shrinking space just generally. So yeah, that’s really terrific to hear that non-fiction is also a particular area that you’re looking to cultivate as well. So when it comes to acquiring books, because that’s obviously what you’re doing, and Ultimo’s looking to be building that list, what is the, what is the process that comes about? If you’re a new writer and you’re thinking about your work and wanting to be published, what is the way that you’ve been acquiring books there at Ultimo? 

Brigid Mullane: So there’s a few, I think, major ways that people would probably be aware of. So one way that things come to us is through agents, so an agent has already, you know, I think they do a lot of the same scrolling and reading that I do, and they pick up the talent and represent them, and then will, a proposal might come to Ultimo that way, through an agent. It might be me reaching out to someone if I’ve seen an article that they’ve written in a literary mag or in the paper, or I think there’s an idea in it, and I will reach out and see if they’ve ever thought about having a book length project. That’s the kind of longer game… acquiring strategy, or I might see someone at the Emerging Writers’ Festival and reach out to them. There’s also, I think, a growing pathway that is coming through prizes. So there’s quite a few unpublished manuscript prizes at the major houses, there’s been a few announced recently. I think Giramondo’s got a new speculative fiction prize, we have the Ultimo prize, that’s also another good way to get connected, just to kind of break down one of the barriers between publisher and author. And then another way that people are probably familiar with is, like, the submissions inbox or the unsolicited, you know, Pitch Friday, or most publishers have some kind of pathway for unsolicited submissions. I hope by the time this podcast comes out, something that I’ve been working on will be up and running, which is a submissions portal from the Ultimo website. So that will be where you can actually see each of the publishers. So we’ve got three people commissioning work at Ultimo at the moment—so there’s Robert Watkins, who’s our publishing director, who does sort of literary fiction and non-fiction; Alex Craig, who does a lot of commercial fiction and non-fiction; and then I’m doing emerging voices non-fiction. And what you’ll be able to see from the portal is who’s accepting what, and I think… 

Rebecca Starford: Oh, okay, yeah, (Inaudible). 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, I think just having that information will help people target a little bit more. Because the thing with a submissions inbox, and, you know, you’d have it at KYD as well, is just there’s hundreds per month, or…so standing out in that space is really difficult. Whereas I think if you have a way of targeting the right publisher, you can at least speak to why your project is right for their list in a way that you can’t if you’re just sending it into the ether, and hoping for response. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, absolutely. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, we have had some things come through the submissions inbox that we’re publishing, so it’s not as if that never happens, but I just think a little bit more info for writers will be helpful. 

Rebecca Starford: I certainly know from experience that, you know, there are things that writers can do, don’t you think, where they can, where it’s demonstrated in their submission that they have done a little bit of research, which I think does go a little way, you know, a little way in terms of their submission as well. It demonstrates that the time has been taken to research, you know, even the name of the publisher, but also the genres that are published within the house, or, you know, even an understanding of the kind of work that’s published. You know, some publishing houses are quite specialist in terms of their content, you know, they might be, you know, you mentioned Giramondo, that’s a very literary publishing house, so obviously the kinds of works that they’re going to be interested in, it’s going to have that more literary bent, whereas, you know, for instance, a publisher like Black Inc, for instance, although they do publish fiction, they’ve got that very strong kind of current affairs, politics bent as well. So again, that portal sounds great because a writer then can go away, they have a little bit of information about the publishers and the editors that they’re pitching to, and then can target. There’s no point sending, you know, a collection of speculative short stories to someone who, you know, is the non-fiction, you know, specialising in non-fiction. But that can happen in the submissions. You can get the sense that this is just being sent everywhere. And although, you know, there’s not going to be any necessary sort of prejudice against the particular writer for doing that… 

Brigid Mullane: No, and … 

Rebecca Starford: A little bit of targeting goes a long way, I reckon. 

Brigid Mullane: I think so too. And I think the idea with the portal as well will be to have the fields that we want answers to on the website. So if we want a synopsis, which we will, you know, there’s a space where you’d put the synopsis. So I think any kind of good submission should have a good synopsis, you know, an author bio. What really, I think, helps you stand out is showing that you have an understanding of the kind of book you’re writing, and the kind of readership that exists or that already exists. Like sometimes you get a feeling that people have written a book, but they don’t read, if that makes sense? Like they don’t read in that genre or they don’t read widely, and they don’t have an understanding of why…where their book would sit. I think if you know where your book or your project sits in, even in a bookstore, or what kind of other authors you would like to be compared to, other things that are happening in your field, I think that really does help to set you apart quite quickly. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, absolutely. And that comes down, doesn’t it, to the pitch that the writer is putting together. And yeah, you know, we can’t…you know, if you’re an emerging writer listening to this, you know, there’s no expectation that you know everything about the industry, but, you know, going—literally going into a bookshop or even looking online, because not everyone can go into bookshops at the moment, sort of seeing similar titles out there that your book might align with in terms of the content and genre, and even maybe the narrative voice or experiences, that’s all really useful in terms of shaping why your book appeals, because, you know, you do need to have a sense as to why your book—your book’s obviously interesting to you, and you believe in the value of it, but then you need to, you know, you do then need to kind of put forward that argument towards the editors and publishers as well. 

Brigid Mullane: Maybe something practical that I could say, just to give people something to hang on to, is to not have the submission that you send to the publisher or to the literary magazine, don’t have the person on the other end be your first reader. Have a writing group if you can, or a friend that you trust, or someone read it for you first. Because I think, um…a lot of authors that we’re publishing at Ultimo, I now have found have these writing groups, and I think that is a big contributing factor to why their proposals are coming through so polished, because they’ve had feedback or they’ve had a manuscript assessment, or they’ve done just one thing before sending it to the publisher, which I think could really help, because I think potentially not everyone does that. 

Rebecca Starford: A lot of what we talk about at Kill Your Darlings, and, you know, some of the workshops that we run as well through the magazine focus on, I suppose really a sense of taking yourself seriously as a writer, finding that motivation, that self confidence. And it is really hard, you know, too, when you’re, you know, so many people, almost everyone are writing as well as being engaged in other work or study or life or responsibilities. So carving out that time and space is difficult. But taking, yeah, like you’re saying, getting other readers out there, or even engaging in a manuscript assessment or something of that nature, is taking your craft seriously. And, you know, it does help in the overall process. It’s not a guarantee of a positive outcome necessarily, but it’s just one step forward in that, in that journey, for want of a better word, to becoming a better writer, and it’s something I don’t think we value enough, that feedback that you can have from other writers. Because what we’ve been talking about today as an editor, it’s that, you know, somewhat collaborative nature of the writer working with another reader, that is ultimately what the editor is, isn’t it, that closest, you know, your closest and most trusted reader through that particular, particular process. So what do you find then, some of the best things about, about being an editor have been for you? 

Brigid Mullane: I think what I love about editing, or being an editor, is like ultimately, I think you mentioned this, like I’m a reader—like, what I love doing is reading. And as an editor, you are the first reader, and you get the ability to help an author shape their work, so that the message that they’re trying to convey, the one that’s in their brain, is going to go directly to the reader. It’s such a collaborative process, and it’s so satisfying to kind of be able to identify an issue, or where something might not be landing, or where there’s, like, a narrative bump or…and help the author resolve it. I find that incredibly satisfying. 

Rebecca Starford: So, how, I mean, you know, there’s been a lot of discussion, particularly at the beginning of the pandemic, about the effects of lockdowns and closures and kind of economic downturn, and how that would affect the publishing industry. Obviously, bookstores have been closed for large swathes of time, you know, across last year and now this year—have you seen any kind of really kind of tangible changes to the way that we publish books as a result of the pandemic? And do you think some of these changes might be permanent, or maybe sort of take us in a different direction, moving forward to sort of post-pandemic, whenever that might be, and whatever that might kind of entail? 

Brigid Mullane: It’s a hard question to answer, I think, at this point, because if it had been a couple of months ago, maybe even, you know, a couple of weeks ago, there was this real feeling that last year, with the lockdowns, that people turned to reading as, um… you know, to help with boredom, and the industry did really well, and people turned to books. This time around, it feels like everyone is too tired to do anything. So the kind of positivity that I had last year has worn a little bit thinner, I think, because, you know, at this stage, people aren’t buying as many books, which makes it harder for everybody in the industry, from bookstores to publishers to writers to editors, to kind of see a way through. I don’t know if, I think the things that have changed the most potentially are the way that we work in-house in terms of working remotely. I know for editors especially, sitting in an open plan office was not really conducive to the kind of work that you need to do. And so when they were allowed to come home, or when they were asked to come back and they were allowed to stay home for three days out of the week, it kind of created a much nicer work environment. 

Rebecca Starford: Can we talk a little bit about the Ultimo prize, and how you guys came about with this idea and the intentions behind it, and where you’re going with the prize? 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, so I think I mentioned a bit earlier that the intention behind the prize is to provide a pathway for publication for emerging writers who might not have something of a full book length yet, and so the idea is that the prize, the judges, the theme and the focus will change every year. So this year we did 30 writers under 30 writing on the theme of ‘Identity’, doing a short fiction and poetry. 

Rebecca Starford: Oh yeah, great. 

Brigid Mullane: So initially we were going to judge it internally—we got some pretty justified criticism about that, and we were able to get Shankari Chandran and Claire G. Coleman on board as our judges, so they helped us with the judging of that. And the stuff that’s come out of it is honestly the, some of the most exciting short fiction and poetry I’ve ever read, not even just from emerging writers, but in the last couple of years, like. 

Rebecca Starford: Fantastic. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, so it’s really exciting, I think, to platform those 30 writers, we’re going to be doing a bunch of stuff in the leadup to sort of highlight them, and then hopefully, hopefully, hopefully be able to do some events—for some of these authors it’s the very first thing they’ve ever had published… 

Rebecca Starford: Oh, wow. 

Brigid Mullane: Which, when I saw the quality of it, was just gobsmacking to me. And then for some of them, you know, they’re a bit further along, so I kind of I really want to have events so we can have this kind of mixing of writers who are a little bit further along on their emerging journey, and people who are brand, brand new, and also, I don’t know, to get to meet the people I’ve been talking to for the last few months? (Both laugh). 

Brigid Mullane: And this year is also, I guess the idea is sort of similar to a McSweeney’s where every year, the format and form and things will change. So we’re working with an emerging designer called George Saad, who’s done this super cool, like a square psychedelic format. So it should be like a really beautiful object as well. So I’m really chuffed to have it out in the world in mid November. 

Rebecca Starford: Mid November, okay, so not not long now. 

Brigid Mullane: Not long now, and then in December, we’re going to announce what the new focus for the prize for the next year will be. 

Rebecca Starford: Okay. So just stay tuned to the socials and the website. 

Brigid Mullane: Stay tuned. I’ll probably be pushing for non-fiction, so you’ll know, (Laughs) you’ll know if I win based on what… (Laughs) what comes out. 

Rebecca Starford: Okay. Oh, that sounds so fantastic. I can’t wait to read that, that collection. And, yeah, it’s so incredible what material and what talent can be unearthed with opportunities like this, it’s just so very exciting. So that sounds like a wonderful project to have been involved in, and how great that for some writers their first ever publication is to be put out in an anthology published by Ultimo. I mean, God, what a coup? 

Brigid Mullane: Well, and hopefully as well, it’s, you know, 30 people who learn about what the publishing process is like as well, so have a bit more information about that. And, you know, even if that information spreads exponentially, hopefully we can just demystify the process a little bit. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, that’s right. And so much about—you know, tapping back into what we were talking about earlier, so much about understanding some of the machinations of publishing and some of that, some of that relate, that kind of relationship that a writer has with an editor, you know, in terms of, even the way that conversation takes place, and that conversation’s taking place over email, it’s taking place in the margins, you know, the track changes. Just to get a sense of the way that editors communicate with writers and how writers communicate back with editors, I think is so instructive, shaping the way a writer can then turn around for their next, whatever their next work might be and think about that process, that editorial process and those suggestions. And I mean, the dream is that some of that feedback is incorporated into the next work, and they continue that development. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, they share it with their writing group and then, you know. 

Rebecca Starford: Fantastic. So you mentioned the prize, so when it was initially announced, you had an internal judging, it was being judged by editorial staff at Ultimo. And there was a bit of pushback, and the pushback surrounding that initial decision to have the internal judges was around the lack of diversity within that judging panel. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah. And look, I think it was a really fair criticism, and it did push us to change the way we were going to do the prize. So I think it was very generous to get that feedback, and it really did shape the way we moved forward and the care with which we did it. I think we were a brand new press and we were just go-go-go, and we didn’t stop to think. And I think what is good about the people calling us out about it, was that it just made us stop and think for a minute. You know, obviously you feel defensive if you get called out, but if you can work through that and just sit and listen, it honestly was a better process because of the feedback we got. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah. And I mean, look, we are in the midst of a very important conversation about diversity in Australian publishing, because there is a real lack of it. With the prize and those kind of conversations that you guys were having in response to initial judging selection, has it—so you mentioned it made you more aware, in what ways, does that get you guys thinking in the more energised way about the kind of material that you’re publishing and the voices that you are seeking? Or is that something that was very much kind of built into your ethos anyway? Or how, how do we as editors, and working within the industry help improve the issue around diversity? 

Brigid Mullane: It’s a tough question, right? Because there’s, there’s sort of two things I think that are in there. One is the books that you publish, and the other is the staff that helps you publish them. So I think what we’ve had some really good inroads with, and what has been a quicker uptake is publishing diverse voices, and that’s definitely something that is at the heart of what Ultimo wants to do. So our publishing director, Robert, has a long track record of publishing diverse voices, and he’s definitely bought that commitment and ethos to Ultimo. The idea for Ultimo is that it’s reflective of all of Australia. So I think in, in that way, I think publishing is rolling forward, but I think that’s because it’s an easier fix in some ways because it’s individual. What’s much harder, I think, is the structural issue of publishing just being filled with like, middle class, white women, like us. It’s going to take longer to address. I hope it’s at the forefront of everyone’s minds because I think as an industry, like, the work we create and the workplace we create will only be better if everyone is allowed to contribute to it. There was something that Stephen Page said at the Australian Publishing Association conference that I couldn’t stop thinking about—he said last year there was a reckoning, and we were found wanting, and that just plays in my head all the time, because I just think it’s so true. Like, we are so far behind—and now the issue is, you know, we haven’t made it a welcoming space for the kind—like, for candidates. So staffing is going to be a challenge. I hope things are starting to change, I’ve seen, like, there’s a lot of paid internships coming through. There’s the Writing NSW emerging editors mentorships, which are coming through, and I think removing the barrier of unpaid work is really important from a class perspective as well as a race perspective. Ultimo as part of Hardie Grant does have a Reconciliation Action Plan, so there is a commitment to both publishing First Nations stories, but also employment—like, I think that’s the second part that should come with, should always come with the first. 

Rebecca Starford: Yes, absolutely. 

Brigid Mullane: And so as part of that we’ll have a trainee, a First Nations trainee editor next year who we’ll be working with. And there’s another internship which I am hoping, that I was part of setting up, which I’m hoping is getting off the ground early next year, which will be for a First Nations or a person of colour cross-industry internship, which will be paid. I think that’s a good starting point, I think there’s definitely much more to do—if there’s anyone listening who’s interested in partnerships with Ultimo or there’s stuff that we can do to support, just reach out. I think my email is on the website. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. So thanks for sharing those upcoming opportunities as well, that’s really good to know. We’ll have links to a lot of this information on the article page when it goes up in the magazine. But yeah, it is incumbent, isn’t it, on organisations as well, to go out and look, look for these opportunities. I think partnerships are a really good way of doing it, particularly for smaller organisations—I mean, like, you know, like we’ve been talking about, Ultimo, it still remains a small press despite the auspices of Hardie Grant and that, you know, it being a parent company. But yeah, that drive and that ethos will hopefully create change soon. But yeah, it is, the foundations need to be set, don’t they? And we are still a long way away from being in a respectable position as an industry in that respect too. So it’s good to talk about this, and talk about it openly as well. We’re fast running out of time, I’ve just got a couple more questions. So I wanted to know what you’re working on right now, or what’s coming out soon in September, September and onwards… 

Brigid Mullane: Oh my goodness. 

Rebecca Starford: ..That you’re really excited about and you want eyeballs on. 

Brigid Mullane: Okay, so. What…oh, that’s tough. So I’ve already spruiked the anthology, which I think is brilliant. One of the best things about working at Ultimo is I actually, because it’s so small and I’ve involved in lots of the decision making, I love all the books—so that was not always the case in bigger houses. We have two great books coming out in September, the first is Claire G. Coleman’s Lies, Damned Lies, which is a personal reflection on colonisation from Claire. So Claire is a Noongar woman who has written Terra Nullius and The Old Lie, which were both sort of speculative fiction books, and this is her first foray into non-fiction, and it is like blistering. It is, it’s so, so good and angry-making and essential, I think, for everyone to read. The other book in September is Heidi Everett’s My Friend Fox. So Heidi came through the WriteAbility programme at Writers Victoria, which is for writers with disability, and Heidi is talking about her experience with schizophrenia in, like, the most sparkling prose I have read. She is such an incredible writer, her background is in—she’s a musician, so she’s really lyrical, and she just has this way with language that, like, blew my socks off. And it’s actually for any kind of production nerds out there, it is a gorgeous little B format hardback, and we’ve printed gold foil. 

Rebecca Starford: Oh wow, coming out in hardback. 

Brigid Mullane: Yeah, gold foil… 

Rebecca Starford: Ooh, beautiful! 

Brigid Mullane: Directly on the wibalin. So there’s some words that I learnt over the last few months. And then—oh, it’s so hard. There’s just two more that I’ll call out. So we also have Love and Virtue, which is coming out in October, which is Diana Reid. It’s her debut fiction book, and it’s all about sex, power and consent—it’s a campus novel. If Helen Garner’s First Stone was set now, and it was a campus novel. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah. Okay. 

Brigid Mullane: And then, they’re all my favourites, but my other favourite is Shankari Chandran’s Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens, which is coming out in January, and is set in a retirement village in Western Sydney. And it’s a commercial fiction book, but she’s sort of, is so clever, she tricks you into participating in this very complex discussion about race and what it means to be Australian through the guise of this fantastic commercial fiction book. 

Rebecca Starford: Sounds wonderful. 

Brigid Mullane: Was there another part of your question? I just went straight to spruiking. 

Rebecca Starford: No, no, no, that was, what a wonderful summary of the upcoming books, they all sound absolutely brilliant. No, I just wanted to know lastly, as we sadly wrap up, whether there is now—okay, this is just like the dream question, Okay? Is there a dream author you would like to work with editorially? Like anyone. They don’t have to be alive. 

Brigid Mullane: Oh, okay. 

Rebecca Starford: Well, I’m putting you on the spot here. 

Brigid Mullane: No, it’s okay. I can definitely think of some books that I wish I had published, and so if any writers out there who think they fit in this space, give me a, drop me a line. So I just read Stranger Care by Sarah Sentilles, which is a non-fiction book about her fostering a child, like this gorgeous kind of memoir interconnected with the history of fostering and what it means to build a family. And, you know, what it means to love, so it’s just like, fantastic. I also really loved Jenny Odell’s How To Do Nothing. 

Rebecca Starford: Yes, I’m reading that at the moment. 

Brigid Mullane: Oh, it’s so good! 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, yeah. 

Brigid Mullane: I love that kind of cultural criticism. I don’t know, like, that book just needed to exist, and I don’t know, she does it in such a smart way that deconstructs… 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, it’s incredibly smart, isn’t it? I mean, that’s sort of, it seems a bit of a reductive kind of description, but as I’m reading, I’m just like, wow, the way that it’s threaded together. 

Brigid Mullane: It just made me look at my phone differently… 

Rebecca Starford: Ohh… 

Brigid Mullane: And birds differently, and trees and all sorts of things. 

Rebecca Starford: Yeah, yep. 

Brigid Mullane: And there’s also, there’s a Bachelorette recapper from the States called Ali Barthwell, who I think should make a book so I could read it. She might… 

Rebecca Starford: Oh okay, maybe this can be your next commission, Brig. 

Brigid Mullane: She might be my dream, my dream author. (Laughs). 

Rebecca Starford: That could be your new specialist genre in the portal. 

Brigid Mullane: Absolutely. 

Rebecca Starford: Oh, that is so wonderful, so good to get those insights. Unfortunately we’ve run out of time, but it’s been so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you for sharing all of your insights and experiences as commissioning editor there at Ultimo, and really looking forward to reading the books that you’ve mentioned as well, that are coming out in the next few months. That all sounds very exciting for you guys there at HQ. 

Brigid Mullane: Well, thanks for having me Bec, was lovely to chat. And if anyone does have non-fiction projects, my email is on the website and you can reach me through the Submission portal as well. 

Rebecca Starford: Brilliant. Thanks, Brig. 

Brigid Mullane: Thanks, Bec! 

Alice Cottrell: Thanks for listening to this episode of Pub Talk. If you’re keen to learn more about Australian publishing and writing opportunities, check out the Kill Your Darlings website at killyourdarlings. Com. Au. And if you haven’t already, please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a review -we’d be very grateful. Catch you next time.